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Dread Lord Squeak
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|  | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #1 on Sept 13, 2005, 9:23pm » | ![[Quote]](http://s2.images.proboards.com/buttons/quote.gif "[Quote]") |
I'm liking what I'm seeing... I need to read more. I know that this is so very helpful.
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Dread Lord Squeak
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Dread Lord Squeak
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Karma: 1 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #3 on Oct 18, 2005, 8:02pm » | |
(Reposting from the Dundjinni boards)
Hi Gang - just thought I'd throw together another quick update - and maybe I'll leave you alone after this, until the thing is complete, anyway... 
I had slowed my development a bit by concentrating on optimization - as a result, I'm running a few scenarios where 3,000 angry idiots are participating in some mass-violence... and to make matters more interesting, the player's army is heavily outnumbered by each of the three enemy AI teams... so far, so fun...
Also, I've made a quick little test configuration which allows the player's team to attempt an invasion of occupied territory from a position to the south. And since I've now got line-of-sight implemented, you don't know where the enemy is, or how many are coming after you... 
A few more compressed shots:
1) A small band of attackers approaches the bridge - line of sight reveals a few defenders...
![[image]](http://ca.geocities.com/mike_gillissie@rogers.com/images/LOS.jpg "[image]")
2) The "few" defenders seem to have called in for support - not looking too pretty for our brave invaders...
![[image]](http://ca.geocities.com/mike_gillissie@rogers.com/images/MoreEnemies.jpg "[image]")
3) But not to worry - friends are right around the corner...
![[image]](http://ca.geocities.com/mike_gillissie@rogers.com/images/MoreFriendsToo.jpg "[image]")
Now it's time to stop playing it for a bit and get back to coding...
As always, I'd love to hear comments, suggestions, sonnets or criticism!
Later, folks!
-Squeaks
PS: Please note that my Dundjinni skills are nowhere near anything else you'll see on these boards. But once the coding is nearly complete, I'll be creating all of the maps for the game, and will be learning how to make better rivers/river banks, hills, terrain in general, etc...
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Karma: 1 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #4 on Nov 4, 2005, 5:49pm » | |
Quote:| PS: Please note that my Dundjinni skills are nowhere near anything else you'll see on these boards. But once the coding is nearly complete, I'll be creating all of the maps for the game, and will be learning how to make better rivers/river banks, hills, terrain in general, etc... |
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If you ever have any specific questions, just ask, we'll be glad to help. There's plenty of tutorials, and we can make more if you need them (quick one-liner tip: shadings [shadows]). Plus I'm pretty sure most of the mapmakers on the Dundjinni boards will allow you to use thier maps. You're doing good so far, and besides, the primary objective is the game.
~lurker~
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Dread Lord Squeak
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Karma: 3 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #6 on Dec 2, 2005, 3:08am » | |
Concept is appealing I must say. Completely different to anything else out there and concept is sort of a real MMORTSG. (Massive Multiplayer Real Time Strategy Game
Could maybe add another level on tactic and some kind of organizational/formations or however it is into it, might become even more strategy involved.
Think of this as brainstorming ideas and just throw out anything that doesn't fall into the category "interesting" just dont shoot me
* Hierarchy
Personally, I am one of them guys who likes being meticulous, I like the small details or pedant some would say. A normal army can be divided into a hierarchical structure composed of a Commander of the army, generals and all the way down to the regular soldier. Allowing someone to set up a rank structure would be nice. If the player can add names to each rank would be even better. A structure of up to 20 not necessarily forcing someone to pick 20 ranks but can just use 2 if so want to and the player gets the option of leaving out the remaining 18.
* Morale
Normally, a higher rank usually means the lower ranked soldier either does as the commander say or get shot, well in ancient times at least. Lets call it morale, now, personally I just hate it when the game tells me a unit dint want to suicide, I want it to die and thats it, its needed for a reason. So making a unit flee due to morale, doesn't fancy me much. Morale doesn't necessarily need mean someone going to flee or stay, can just mean that whoever has a higher morale gets a + modifier on something or another instead of fleeing.
* Army structure
A normal military organization can be something along thees lines
Corps - Division - Brigade/battalion - regiment - company/squadron - platoon - group - soldier
How a fantasy mad one is to be made up can differ of course, adding a 20 level structure would be interesting and then letting the player name them and add soldiers to a particular group, collecting a group into a platoon etc making a hierarchy for th army might have some benefits.
* Reorganizing
Picking a soldier, you could select a regroup feature and select the level of it by choosing on of the above mentioned hierarchies for example. Picking Bob, then selecting the platoon icon or key would instantly select everyone who is in Bobs group and the other 3 groups who are in Bobs platoon. This would make for more tactical maneuvers. If the player already spent some time dedicating what kind of unit is in each group/...hierarchy they can make some fast tactical changes to a battle and reorganize/set up different scenarios.
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You have to understand that strategy isn't all about who has the biggest guns. It's all about capitalizing on your strength and abusing the other people's weaknesses. |
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Dread Lord Squeak
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Karma: 1 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #7 on Dec 2, 2005, 2:45pm » | |
Vulpes, my man! Welcome here!
I was thinking along the same lines with the hierarchy, although I was considering a much lower number than 20 - perhaps somewhere in between would be ideal, especially if the hierarchy is expanded to include other players, rather than just one's own units... I haven't really described that much, yet, about my interpretation of multiplayer guilds...
About morale - unit morale will allow many different things to happen. How'd you like to see an enemy go berserk, kill everyone around him and defect to join another player? That's a bit drastic, but how about something as simple as units will low morale being less steady in their formation, more willing to give ground... as well as bonuses to their fighting ability... morale will be an interesting feature...
Keep 'em coming! It's great to hear other voices in here!
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vulpes
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Karma: 3 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #8 on Dec 2, 2005, 5:07pm » | |
Yeah, I see what you mean with 20 perhaps being too much, however if the game allows it without taking to much prestanda, let them have it and Ill explain why
First more on formations
Formations.
Picking a soldier, you could select a regroup feature and select the level of it by choosing on of the above mentioned hierarchies for example. Picking Bob, then selecting the platoon icon or key would instantly select everyone who is in Bobs group and the other 3 groups who are in Bobs platoon. This would make for more tactical maneuvers. If the player already spent some time dedicating what kind of unit is in each group/...hierarchy they can make some fast tactical changes to a battle and reorganize/set up different scenarios.
Some information on legionary formations and battle tactics
http://www.numbera.com/rome/strategy/legform.aspx
This image
http://www.numbera.com/rome/strategy/images/marchform.gif
together with the post I read somewhere where you spoke about "how many units to control" makes me think a little out of the box. What do I mean with that, well basically games such as Ages of empire etc, does in one way allow you to set up your own forms of formations. However, they give you the option of making a 2 row 20 column line or a 5x5 square. Nothing like the image above.
Could add a tool of some sort, call it a formation-manager that can predefine how certain units will place them self compared to other units. Formations don't necessarily need give any bonus to units for their particular placement. The selection of certain units in certain areas may be sufficient a bonus aka it is up to the player them self to find the best tactical deployment of a particularly military unit for the current situation = strategy.
So, if a player have the option of setting up say 20, 50 or maybe even 100 different formations they can adapt to a situation. Let us use the above image.
I spend 30 minutes, setting up a/some formations and lets hope I don't forget to save it or computer crashes after having rearranged my 2000 units
After a few days, I am happy with my 10 formations I managed build up.
Note: Seeing I read somewhere you would start with 6 units or am I all wrong? As the time goes you would be able add to your formations slowly bit by bit. So a player will be able to expand as time goes..
Anyway, I arrive at my predestined location and suddenly I notice the enemy are not using what I was hoping, I need to change/reorganize. A fast rearrange/swap position key would be useful..
I can in my formation, do a group...hierarchy selection and then target another selection and just swap their placement. got the Cavalry in the back and need them in upper right flank where the artillery is all alone. Select + swap, all done. Formation remains just moved the places temporarily.
Say you have 10 units in each and 10 steps in a hierarchy at first glance, you would think each box is a set of units right? but wait I have a strange feeling..hmm..lets see.
1+2+4+8+16+32+64+128+256+512 = 1023 slots, times 10 = 10, 230 untis in total. Something is wrong, exactly, only the last box in the hierarchy actually got units. We have 256 platoons, but still only got 5,120 units (512 slots with 10 units in each) in them, granted, nothing prevents you from having 20 units, or 200 perhaps in each group. Or maybe add increments of up to 5?
1+5+10+20+40+80+160+320+640+1280 = 1280 slots totalling 12,800 units. Why add 5 slots increment per hierarchy ladder. Well most military got 3+ groups in one platoon..etc all the way up to the top. Granted can't say everyone do but 2 isn't that common and makes the chains shorter too if want accomodate lots of units.
Now make it 20 slots and youll have your ass covered for along time, or well, for a while at least
x2
---------------
1024 - 2048 - 4096 - 8192 - 16384 - 32768 - 65536 - 131072 - 262144 - 524288 x 10 = 5.242.288 units lol and whoever manages make that will have a bleeding brain. But if they really want, they can have 1 unit in each of the slots.
An interesting thing though that just hit me. If can assign a particular leader into each hierarchy slot that might give some kind of morale bonus would be a nifty feature also.
Example
Company A = CA
Platoon A = PA and Platoon B = PB
Group = GA...GB...GC...GD + GE...GF...GG...GH
Can't figure out how use the tables
Now, each "non group slot, basically only works as a "collector of subgroups" to organize the units. Free 1-2 units that can go into each and if a unit belongs to the "commander slot" in them their "morale modifier/other modifier" will be in effect if other condition for modifier to work is fullfilled.
Example:
----------------CA = Captain Bob-----------------------
PA = Lieutenant Feisty, PB = Sergeant Mommy
-----GA, GB, GC, GD--------------GE, GF, GG, GH------
Note: We all know in the home, women in charge, reason higher rank on the correct person
Lt.Feist would occupy the Platoon slot and give appropriate bonuses to their respective groups when the appropriate conditions are met. Same with Sg.Mommy. Cpt.Bob would affect everyone both good or bad. Will you want to defend bob from harm if he affects stuff negatively should he die? Definitely. Opens for some interesting thoughts.
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You have to understand that strategy isn't all about who has the biggest guns. It's all about capitalizing on your strength and abusing the other people's weaknesses. |
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Dread Lord Squeak
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Karma: 1 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #9 on Dec 2, 2005, 10:58pm » | |
Believe it or not, that makes sense - in other threads, I've discussed the plan for special leaders to arise, extraordinary units that can actually confer bonuses on the units they command. This will still work.
Rather than build a rigid structure to the hierarchy, you're right - I can just as easily allow the player to figure out their own structures. The special leader units will be able to confer their bonuses, although I'll have to limit the number of units they can assist (ie. if you've got one spectacularly good leader, you can't just make him general and put everybody else reporting directly to him - that's just wrong.)
Now, the formations - I'm hoping that the Formation Editor portion will take even less time than you had speculated, although perfecting formations will take time and tinkering. For that reason, I'm thinking of allowing "Practice Drills" as part of the formation editor. You'll be able to test out your formations in the editor, seeing how formations and maneuvers work together, and building up a few tricks, without losing all of your units due to a poor bit of mental 'rithmetic...
The number of units - yup, was thinking that the player would initially start off with 6 units. But each of these 6 would be a bit tougher than the average soldier. These would be your initial six leadership units. Your first task would be to set up a rudimentary base and start conscripting troops while looking around and defeating enemies (in most cases, you won't have to worry about human opponents right away - there'll be "dumb guys (AI)" for you to start off against). So very quickly you should have enough to start up a few parties - train and unleash a squad of scouts to look around, some engineers to work on your base and defenses, and a brute squad or two that can go and knock some skulls together.
Keeping in mind that the pace of the game will be a bit slower than an RTS, so the strategy-minded player should have enough time to react and reformulate plans - the "change formation" keys / icons will be very handy indeed...
I love this line of discussion. Keep it up.
Note - I've currently got the code broken, as I'm rebuilding the interface using JOGL (the OpenGL bindings for Java), but maybe one of my first tasks after having everything working again will be to start working on formations and hierarchy...
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vulpes
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Karma: 3 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #10 on Dec 5, 2005, 8:15am » | |
Formations continued:
Been thinking some more. If implement a method to set up and construct your own formations you have the overall structure and base placement of formations set.
What is needed from the game is a smooth way to "handle formations" Things needed.
* Custom base formation
A player made custom formation that decides how the player starts their deployment.
The following three are more features to handle a custom made formation so as to adapt to a certain situation.
* Swap
Select 2 clusters (using cluster so as to not confuse with the word group as in 10 units) of units. Select swap and they will swap positions in the current formation.
* open
If you have a formation of 20x20 units, all occupying the 400 hexes needed to place them. Open command will have them move one hex out and take up every other hex (40x40 = 800 hex total). Might want to prevent them moving more then 1 hex out so as to not give too much "auto feature" to a player. If can set it so a unit cannot use the open command to distance itself more then x hexes from another team/formation member you have it set up.
They want move some units to Timbuktu, they need move a whole group to scout an area.
* Close
The opposite of the open command.
Interesting thought on obstacles. Say I have a 20x20 grid of units. Expanding it to 40x40 would expand my group into occupying 10 grids extra in all directions. Now, assume I on the edge of the old 20x20 grid have a tree blocking the path for a unit to get to the the other side of the tree would be easy as unit just needs move around the tree. The free spot and "the path" to reach the free spot on the other side of the tree, are both inside the new 40x40 area.
Now, assume on the edge of my 20x20 is a mountain wall along my north edge. Once the 40x40 units starts their deployment the north edge of the mountain side will have a small ravine going in, allowing placement on the inside of it of 2 units. But there is no "free path all the way to that area, from inside the expanded 40x40 grid. This would mean the placement of the units on them 2 slots would be forfeited and would not occur.
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You have to understand that strategy isn't all about who has the biggest guns. It's all about capitalizing on your strength and abusing the other people's weaknesses. |
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vulpes
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Karma: 3 | | Re: Early screenshots...
« Reply #11 on Dec 5, 2005, 5:17pm » | |
And your right, the more I think of it, Morale and possible rout, surrender and their effects are important indeed.
Given any thoughts to supply, logistics etc?
Also can you explain the stats? I think I saw one thread with some explanations of them but, I blaim Alzheimer for failing to find it.
Do you have stamina or something to represent fatigue. Perhaps fatigue affects morale in some ways, the longer a unit fights without rest the lower the morale or something. This would motivate why have reserve or backup units. Freshly rested and why 23 vs 1 odds would be more beneficial even if the underdog got x5 strong guys.
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You have to understand that strategy isn't all about who has the biggest guns. It's all about capitalizing on your strength and abusing the other people's weaknesses. |
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